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Episode 23

The Real Problem With Advertising

Featuring: Claire Atkin & Nandini Jammi, Check My Ads

Businesses use advertising to get their products and messages in front of consumers as they browse the web. However, the expansion of the media landscape and the emergence of platforms that spread hateful messages and misinformation are forcing marketing teams to take a firm look at where their money is going. Claire Atkin and Nandini Jammi, Co-Founders of Check My Ads, connected over their passion for calling out media misinformation and brands that are advertising on these platforms. Their new venture is poised to help marketers and advertisers understand the full context of their audiences’ behaviors and ensure their dollars don’t get in the wrong hands.
During this episode, Atkin and Jammi share:

  • How their histories in marketing inspired them to form Check My Ads;
  • The leading problems in the current advertising climate;
  • How the Facebook advertising boycott will impact the future of the industry; and
  • What “brand safety” means and the gaps in current solutions in the market.


I joke that marketers including me are
like corporate shills who are just like empty
vessels for for corporate speak that
that has totally shifted now marketers
are saying you know we don’t actually
we don’t feel comfortable with what’s
happening here and we are going to make
a stand personally within our company we are
going to put our values on the line
within our careers and that is a huge
you’re listening to retail remix your
inside access to candid conversations
with the people shaping retail’s future
here’s your host alicia esposito hey
really excited to share today’s episode
with you, i had the chance to sit down
nandini jamie and claire atkin
co-founders of check my ads
both started in b2b marketing and
and once they met they were kindred
spirits as they say
and joined together to embark on a more
collective mission
around helping brands and specifically
better understand where their dollars
are going
for their campaigns and better improve
their investments and
associate with brands and media
that don’t encourage disinformation or
hate speech so it’s a very big topic it
aligns really
really well with the facebook
advertising boycotts which in and of
itself is a lot to unpack
so i wanted to sit down with the two of
them understand their mission
how they’re helping brands and most of
all get their takes
on cancel culture the future of
advertising and really what marketing
and advertising teams can do
to not just hold themselves accountable
but make better decisions
and most of all communicate those
decisions and
changes to the general public
so hope you find this conversation
not just insightful but encouraging
and motivating because as you’ll find
out this is a big time of
change and we’re all in this together
nanny claire thank you so much for
taking the time to join me today
before we get into some of the very
important work that you both are doing
with check my ads
very timely very important like i said
why don’t you share a little bit about
specifically your history and experience
marketing and advertising nani why don’t
you start sure
so my background is in marketing i
graduated with a degree in marketing
from the university of maryland and i
went on to work in i would say i kind of
into b2b tech marketing it was where i
got my first job and it was just
kind of where i ended up working for
several years
specifically i was working for tech
and in these roles i was often like i
did a little bit of everything so i was
a bit of a generalist doing a little bit
of copywriting
seo just the whole growth strategy as a
great claire yeah i’ve also been in b2b
tech marketing for
forever it seems i actually have a
master’s in geography and never studied
but when i came to tech i realized that
the software model that is subscription
is actually a really ethical place for
marketers to be because
you can’t sell someone something that
they don’t need
it’s not like there’s one transaction
and then it’s over they always have to
have it be valuable or else they will
so i really liked that style of
marketing so
that’s what i did with work and then
after the election i was
i was just appalled at the way that the
tech industry had helped
to undermine the united states election
even though i’m canadian you know we’re
all affected
so i actually went and studied
international election observation
and media analysis of election
observation so
when nandini and i met she had founded
sleeping giants and i had been working
just election integrity and so we just
found kindred spirits within the
i love that and you know as someone who
studied journalism and ended up in b2b
i could very much relate to the paths
that you both
went on but i wanted to i do want to dig
into what kind of led you both
to today and claire you kind of said
that you you were kindred spirits which
i love
and that kind of made me think about the
fact that you know our past experiences
tend to set a path for us you know
sometimes it’s not
necessarily linear but our past
experiences our past learnings kind of
uncover new opportunities and new ideas
for us which i think
in this space specifically is really
exciting and can lead to some
great things but i mean since you both
have a
history in marketing and b2b
specifically and marketing and tech
i’m sure that you know your experiences
and clearly kind of refer to this
led to uncovering some flaws or
problems things you possibly wanted to
even injustices right and i think we’ll
kind of get deeper into this as we go
into our conversation
but i mean what issues have you found in
advertising specifically not any i’d
love to
to have you kind of dig into this as
co-founder of sleeping giants i mean
this is a huge passion point for you so
i mean
what issues have you largely been seeing
in this space
right so i stumbled into
my activism work and into sleeping
giants after the elections
i visited for the first
time i’ve been hearing about it for
a while certainly throughout the
election cycle
and the first ad i came across was for
old navy
on the site and having run
one set of google ads a couple months
ago for the first time
i was like i don’t think that these guys
know they’re on here
because if they did they would have
excluded it already
and knowing how google ads worked
and knowing how easy it is to go do that
and knowing that just that simple act
could deprive breitbart of bad dollars
of funds that they need to keep growing
i actually i wrote a medium post i took
a screenshot of an old navy ad
and i put it out there and asked them to
take down those
take down their ads from breitbart and i
joined forces with sleeping giants
a week later and we started to basically
row this into a real campaign and at
first there was just a couple of us
taking these screenshots every day
and then people started to take notice
they wanted to join us and we you know
we threw up a set of instructions
and said you know just do what we’re
doing take these screenshots
let the brands know tag is in it so we
can keep track of
the progress that we’re making and
because everyone was seeing different
ads they’re all being targeted
we were able to scale the effort really
quickly so
what we found through this campaign was
brands had no idea where their ads were
and the fact that their ads were on
breitbart was news to them
and at the time it was a really really
big shock to the advertising industry it
led to
a lot of a lot of trouble agencies got
in trouble
google got in trouble google was letting
the uk government
advertise on terrorist content i mean
this was a really really bad situation
so that’s kind of how that’s kind of how
i got involved in the world of
yeah and like you said big problems i i
think in how
the entire advertising structure
advertising model
was and still is being run so let’s
let’s kind of fast forward to
where you both are today how did
uncovering these issues
and frankly there is this lack of
and and accountability that i think is
really coming to the forefront now and i
we’ll probably get into that but i mean
how did these
issues drive you to founding
check my ads so what we realized i
checked my ads
is that basically nadine and i met and
then we went
to edinburgh and hung out for a few days
and on that trip both of us were just
man why isn’t the industry making any
impactful changes like advertising is
systematically funding
hate and disinformation the rise in the
polarization of these issues
has been thanks to the fact that money
is flowing
to people who are expounding hate and
bigotry i mean that
it just doesn’t seem it doesn’t seem
like something that we should let go on
and so we sort of were putting our heads
together and we realized that marketers
actually might need a lot more help than
originally thought so what we’re doing
at check my ads is
helping to frame brand safety helping to
how best to spend your advertising
dollars and really working marketers
through the intellectual practice of
having to take a stand
and then of course the marketing of
taking that stand and so we’re working
with brands to
empower marketers to really feel like
they have
a way forward within this system yeah i
would add to that that
brands have really felt like they’re in
a tight spot because
of campaigns like ours sleeping giants i
think has been
i guess like our mission has largely
been lost in translation in the
marketing industry people
in marketing believe that we’re out to
get them
part of this like concept of cancel
culture and
like nothing could be farther from the
truth because my motivations
for starting this campaign was to inform
advertisers and marketers of where their
ads were going it was really just to
give them a heads up and social media
was the fastest way to do it
we’ve actually never launched a boycott
we have simply
just made brands aware of where their
ads were appearing
and that kind of put them in a that kind
of gives them an opportunity
to respond and to
restate what their values are to the
public and to their customers
so we really see it as an opportunity
for you to communicate your values in
that way in a very public way
and assert them in a meaningful way and
that means that we
are being consistent with the values
that we market
on our website in our commercials and in
a way that doesn’t muddle our message
yeah i think that’s a great point
because now more than ever i feel like
brands are really emphasizing their
values and their missions
not just as organizations but as
individuals so how does i start from the
top and trickle all the way down and how
does that impact
the customer ultimately and i know in
retail specifically we’ve been hearing a
lot about
values and mission-driven marketing
mission-driven businesses so
very very relevant and i think really
speaks to
where businesses need to go and what
they need to be thinking about
but claire i do want to go back to you
know this space
this brand safety space because i feel
like it’s definitely a term
i personally have been hearing about a
more so you know since you guys are
in on this market would love to hear a
little bit more about
where this space is right now
and what the current promise is like who
else is kind of playing in this market
help brands do sort of the same thing
you guys are doing and if they’re not i
mean i would love to to hear
you know how that space is playing out
right now i mean the concept at all of
brand safety
sounds silly in today’s world because
what’s happened is
so originally marketers had to
somehow make a business case for doing
the right thing
and so they’re like oh you know what
would keep us safe from social media
let’s keep our brand safe well that made
perfect sense
when that was the case but i think
things have shifted over the last few
and actually we’re hearing from
marketers themselves
that they want to take a stand this is
not like them reflecting their customers
they’re saying you know what things have
changed we actually
are alarmed at what is happening in our
industry and
we as a group internally as a team
within our brand
really really want to take a stand with
this so
the term brand safety is almost a
misnomer at this point
i still think it’s valuable though
because we’re using it to discuss
the fact that what is good for your
brand is
doing good by your community so there’s
when we’re talking about brand safety
and advertising though what we’re
talking about is
are your ad dollars going to fund bad
faith organizations so people who peddle
xenophobia and hatred and disinformation
this also applies of course to covet 19
any content that is really bad for
we do not want our ad budgets funding
so that to me is a relatively simple
concept but what
has happened in the industry is that
brand safety as an
idea has been misconstrued
to somehow communicate that
advertisers should be afraid of their
ads being
adjacent to on a page bad news
so news for instance that might make
them feel
uncomfortable or icky or or to have
content that just isn’t this isn’t feel
good content
positive sentiment analysis content okay
so what does that mean
it means that what they’ve done is
they’ve used this technology called
keyword block lists and they’ve put
on those block lists to block certain
that have those words in them so words
blood or shooting violence
and that means that their ads either
pre-bid or post bid
don’t get shown on those pages that
makes sense when you’re talking about
content that is calling for violence but
of course
most content that is calling for
violence doesn’t even use those words
and instead what it has done is
block news articles about these subjects
so instead of blocking white supremacy
we are blocking journalism and
that to me is just illogical yeah so
there’s definitely some nuance there
i think it kind of plays into that
notion of it’s not just
you know blocking those key words it’s
the context
surrounding the content itself so like
you said more around hateful content
so there are two different lenses i
think that this needs to be
looked at so going back to that point
around how a lot of solutions are more
you know keyword blocking and making
sure ads kind of show up along
side positive or fuzzy content for lack
of a better term so
because there’s that misalignment i
is it safe to assume that a lot of
solutions in the market aren’t quite
up or not fully delivering upon that
of complete brand safety yeah
that is exactly how i would say that
have again there’s i can draw a direct
line between
what we said at sleeping giants where
our campaign was around defunding
very specific types of content we use
the words
homophobia xenophobia misogyny
sexism bigotry this was the type of
content we wanted brands to be aware of
and to stay away from
and what brand safety technology
companies did was reinterpret that
and say well you guys don’t want to
appear on anything that could be
potentially negative
and so what they did as claire said was
was insure
or even i guess over block news content
which was you know not the point of the
campaign and not really the point of
advertising yeah that makes total sense
and it’s fascinating as we kind of feel
back the layers you know how nuanced and
all this is but let’s dig into what
check my ad specifically brings to the
table to
help marketers and advertising teams
really ensure
that their advertising dollars are being
spent efficiently effectively and going
to the right sources
claire would love for you to kind of dig
into that so the first thing we do
is we have a newsletter and that
newsletter comes out every
two weeks and we talk about
the most prescient issues in ad tech
i say prescient and usually when we use
that term it’s about like
what is happening this decade but in ad
tech things are changing
week to week so we are talking about
facebook ad boycotts and covet 19
and different kinds of fraud that
have to be even more careful of than
usual this is not just about
inefficiency of their spend for instance
giving money to criminals but it’s also
making their brand
unsafe on the web so we cover that
specific kind of fraud
and so we’ve been talking about these
big subjects
out in the open we have an exponentially
growing list of
advertisers and agencies and even ad
folks and government decision makers on
our list here and so we are talking
about that and that’s like a free and
accessible way to
get all of the download of whatever
we’re thinking of
in a given week but then we’ve been
contacted by
brands and advertisers and ad agencies
for for originally we thought they
wanted ad checks we originally thought
they wanted
us to go through their site list and
show them
where the hate was so that they could
block it and we were we were expecting
to see stateless but instead what we’ve
realized is folks are actually looking
a collective discussion internally about
what they
about where they stand on these topics
because of course
hate is is the furthest one but then
there are questions of like well
where do we stand on tabloids and where
do we stand on
taboola or other content generation
where do we stand on fox news there’s
all of these really big
topics to be had and so we’re helping to
i would say like manage that discussion
within a team because it’s a lot easier
when external consultants come in and
like run a workshop for instance
yeah and i could imagine that i mean
there are important conversations
that need to be had but probably a bit
overwhelming largely because
the media landscape is just expanding so
much there are so many new sources
you know some of them independent or
more grassroots that
eventually become you know household
names i mean and i think our
conversation so far
and your mission check my ads mission um
really ladders up to some of these
larger issues that are happening in
media right now at least from what i’m
kind of noticing so i love both of your
takes on this
one like i said the expansion of the
media landscape and that’s kind of
giving not just a platform but
revenue opportunities to these to these
sources that are not just problematic
you know hateful and then there’s also
accountability issue that you know
there’s kind of a tug of war happening
social networks right and it’s like oh
well are we
content aggregators or are we publishers
and you know especially with facebook
it’s kind of like a back and forth
around okay well how much
accountability do these platforms have
so i guess
my big question for you and there could
be probably a few layers to this part of
the conversation
is are we kind of at a tipping point
right now just given
that not just that people are more aware
these nuances in the media and social
media landscape now but there are also
you know people are getting more
critical of you know especially what’s
happening with facebook now
and it’s getting more attention so are
we in the middle of a tipping point i
in the advertising space i think we are
as i said like it used to be that
customers are
contacting marketers and marketers or
having to make
choices that reflect their audience
and now internally marketers are coming
to us and they’re saying
oh my god this doesn’t reflect our
employees values
at all how can we better reflect our
and these are marketers i mean i joke
marketers including me are like
corporate shills who are just like empty
for for corporate speak that
that has totally shifted now marketers
are saying you know we don’t actually
we don’t feel comfortable with what’s
happening here and we are going to make
a stand
personally within our company we are
going to put our values on the line
within our careers and that is a huge
absolutely i would add that alicia as
you mentioned about this growing
landscape and opportunities and options
and marketing channels that are
available to us
i think for the first time marketers are
not just
jumping right in to spend money on all
these new channels but really thinking
about what it means to spend money
on those channels i mean obviously with
that’s sort of brought that issue to the
forefront but also like
the level of nuance that you have to to
think about
one of the examples i would i would
think about is pinterest so pinterest
has used the facebook ad boycott as an
to position itself as a black lives
matter friendly
company they have sort of been marketing
themselves as
a safe place to advertise on like
facebook but if you dig a little bit
deeper you’ll see
that two of pinterest black employees
left the company as a result of being
gaslighted as a result of a toxic work
one of them was doxed by one of her own
colleagues and the company didn’t
protect her
and these two employees have been very
outspoken about the fact that they’ve
been treated poorly at their company
and so for pinterest to come out and say
that they’re very pro
black lives matter but also
be treating their employees like this
that presents a real
dilemma for advertisers again because
they need to be careful
who they spend their money with and
that’s something they need to be
thinking about as well
yeah absolutely i think it really
the importance of not just looking at
what’s happening at face value because
clary kind of may reference this i mean
we’re all marketers we know how to
market we know what messaging is
starting to resonate now
but it’s like digging a few layers
deeper into
what is actually being executed at the
company level
and do their internal practices really
reflect what they’re
putting out into the market right
like you said not immediately there’s
sometimes most of the time
sadly a very strong misalignment there
but it kind of brings me to my follow-up
question i kind of made reference to
the facebook advertising boycott which
of course got a lot of headlines in the
world but a lot of conflicting
viewpoints in terms of
the potential impact especially looking
where most of facebook’s ad revenues
come from
largely a lot of smaller businesses
whereas a lot of big brands
really hopped on the bandwagon to begin
with but i mean you both live and
this space and are really keeping a
close eye on it so
nani why don’t you share your take i
mean do you think there’s a
bigger longer term impact here
or is this just kind of a blip in in
terms of
headlines you know getting positive
attention for these brands
yeah claire and i’ve uh you know we’ve
talked about this extensively and we’ve
written about it as well
in our newsletter we think that the
value of
the facebook ad boycott isn’t
in the lost ad revenue for facebook
because at the end of the day it’s a
drop in the bucket
for that company but the real value
of the boycott is the conversations that
it’s enabling on the ground
among marketers and agencies and
for the first time marketers are
what is taking place on this platform
that they have
invested so much money into one thing
that i learned
recently was that the average
i have a contact at a big agency who
told me
that his clients were not aware
that white supremacists were recruiting
on facebook so i think
a lot of the conversation around or the
debate and the discussion around
free speech and censorship has really
hidden the fact that there’s like
really bad things happening on that
platform and the average person just
doesn’t know that
so it’s kind of brought those issues to
the forefront
and as a result agencies are advising
their marketing clients or in-house
clients to think about
like to really think through these
issues for the first time
and yeah and i believe that it’s there’s
larger understanding on the ground of
what consumers have been
so upset about all this time so it’s not
just a grassroots effort this time
it’s advertisers really coming to terms
with what they’ve enabled through their
ad spend
got it so is it fair to say that you
think that this is going to have
some sort of ripple effect into broader
not just scrutiny i guess better
understanding of how advertising works
greater accountability in terms of
where campaigns are going you know where
ads are being
shared or syndicated like i’m just
trying to think about the long-term
impact like will this transcend into
platforms and other channels do you
think like from a marketer’s perspective
i think it already has i mean from what
we’re hearing
we started by talking about the open web
like not facebook not
google search but we were talking about
like what
websites in the world should you be
on and then block everything else
basically to use an inclusion list
that’s what
our entire message was for months it
still is
and now now this conversation is
inspiring a larger discussion about like
well how are we
as members of a corporate team showing
up in the world i mean
it’s powerful yeah i’d love that
and not any i want to go back to your
work you know at sleeping giants
and you kind of broke down your approach
you know what has made the organization
so impactful in raising awareness not
just among
consumers but among the brands as far as
where their dollars are going
you know increasing that that
accountability so to speak
so i want to put a actionable spin on
this for
for all of the marketers and advertising
folks you know listening right now
trying to figure out how to move forward
how to
ensure that they’re putting their their
investments and you know their time
in the right place i mean what lessons
or action items do you have for
for them listening right now that that
you know they want to figure out
how to get started and maybe assess
their advertising tactics and ensure
that they’re
they’re continuing on the right path
i would say the most important thing to
is to check your ads so that means going
into your
site list and literally going
going through it manually and
understanding where your ads are
are they appearing on websites that
people visit
um that’s that’s one of the most
important things to do but you’ll also
want to see
what disinformation or or hate speech
cites you
you’re appearing on just like go ahead
and dig in and just see what you find
the second thing to do is to consider
creating an inclusion list
so that involves putting together a list
of websites that are
that don’t have bad faith publishers in
them but also
include the sites and outlets that your
customers are visiting
and and being really intentional about
that right and that might mean going to
your customers and asking them hey what
like what are you interested in what are
you reading lately what kind of
content are you interested in and also
expanding beyond programmatic
as or performance marketing even as as
your primary form of marketing i would
also want you to think about
alternative channels we we talked
frequently about
alternative media networks one that we
that we’ve spoken to
is brand advance and that’s a media
network that
works with intersectional audiences so
they have
a whole massive list of publications
that they work with who
cover everything from lgbtq audiences
disabled audiences gen z
trans and so on so we want you to think
about alternative ways of reaching out
to your customers and that might even
mean getting creative
think about you know outdoor advertising
think about refreshing your website you
know is your website
up just enough have you is it possible
for you to invest a little bit more in
user experience and make it a little bit
easier for people to
give you their credit cards or you know
whatever it may be there’s so many ways
connect with your customers in an
authentic way
that doesn’t involve dropping it all
into programmatic
yeah definitely some great tips in there
and before we close out our time
together because we’re a bit at the end
of our
time i want to go back to the point
around cancel culture
which we talked about briefly earlier as
we were thinking about you know the
steps that
brands you know marketers specifically
can take to
assess you know where their dollars are
going right now make some improvements i
i could imagine there’s this
daunting feeling of having to own up or
own their decisions or their mistakes in
a way
and the fear of being canceled quote
unquote and like some people are saying
like oh it should be accountability
culture people should be called in
instead of called out a lot of
that’s a whole other conversation
probably but claire would love your take
on you know what you say to companies or
marketers specifically
that you know want to take action but
then have this fear of being cancelled i
mean it is a bit jarring i i totally
understand that but
how can they encourage this
accountability internally
be more transparent with their customers
but then say
okay like we’re figuring out the the
right path forward
we’re holding ourselves accountable and
we’re gonna do better
essentially is this a big cultural
undertaking i mean
what tips do you have that’s such a
great question
so i have a few different points to make
and they’re not like
they’re not necessarily adjacent to one
another the first i’ll say
is cancel culture the term
from my perspective started when men
were upset that they couldn’t get away
with sexually assaulting people anymore
so already that term is like tainted
the second thing is that i think it’s
let me just take like a giant zoom out
for a second like the
reason that we are having to
vote with our wallets is because
government is not keeping our
communities safe this is a crisis
in federal policy just as much as it is
a crisis of
culture and when our democracies are
being undermined
and democracies of course keep people
then we have to as a as a collective
hold people who don’t keep our safe to
in other ways so whatever we’re
describing as cancel culture
is this we are trying very hard to
the ineptitude of governments and
and enforcement when it comes to bad
so those are two points the third thing
as a marketer internally yes
absolutely be be conscious that
you will always be at risk of a social
media crisis i mean
i have a friend he worked for uh
communications for a city mayor and he
always used to say you know you’re
you’re always one tweet away from
getting fired
and that of course is dangerous and
problematic and we have to talk about
but on the other hand if you internally
don’t take a stand
and if you as a company don’t take a
stand on certain topics when you are
being called
to do so that unto itself sends a
and so don’t be afraid of engaging we
know it’s messy
we understand that natalie and i both
try to come at this with a sense of
but on the other hand you have to do
something if you are being asked by your
partners and your
employees and your prospective customers
and your customers
to say something and to do something in
response to an issue
saying nothing is actually a really bad
really powerful closing points there
claire and i think
it is a ongoing conversation that like
you said everyone’s still trying to
figure things out figuring out what’s
right for their businesses
figuring out the best way to communicate
not just with their direct consumers but
their partners the general public
but it’s definitely i think a very
important time
in marketing and advertising and it’s
been a pleasure to speak with you both
to not just
get your take on what’s happening in the
landscape but how you’re really helping
positive change but before i let you go
any closing thoughts you know calls to
action i know we talked about a lot
today probably a lot for
our listeners to unpack so hopefully we
can dig into another
conversation soon and talk about this a
little bit more
but any closing thoughts insight into
where folks can go to learn more about
check my ads and the work that you’re
doing yeah so our website is
org and on there you’ll see a link to
our newsletter
or you could just go to our newsletter
and that’s a free sign up you can go
there and every two weeks we’ll give you
a headache
any closing thoughts from you uh yeah i
would just say
don’t be afraid to be
yourself to be what your brand really
most people out there including you know
my social media campaign are not out to
get you we just want you to do better
and as long as we can see that you are
and and genuinely engaging with us
that’s what matters it’s not about being
perfect 100
and i know a lot of consumers a lot of
on social media are saying just the
exact same thing just you know
some sort of progress and i think that’s
all we can focus on
at this point so again thank you both so
much for taking the time out
really fascinating conversation i know
in my head i’m just kind of unraveling
everything all of the key takeaways and
talking points and
you know how we collectively as an
industry can can do better
so thank you again so much for taking
the time out thank you alicia
thank you
thanks for listening to this episode of
retail remix be sure to subscribe so you
never miss an episode
you can find us on your favorite podcast
player until next time
keep mixing it up



Retail Remix

The rules of retail are constantly changing. Today, we're in an exciting new era where brands can differentiate through experience and use technology to connect with customers in new and exciting ways. Retail Remix is a new podcast series brought to you by Retail TouchPoints, the industry's leading source for news, insights and research for all things customer experience. Bi-monthly, we sit down with someone who is helping put a new spin on the retail experience. Hear from the top practitioners, analysts and innovators in retail, and see what new engagement opportunities await.

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